The Original Online BODYBUILDING SUPPLEMENTS FORUM. Advanced Techniques. Pro Tips & Insights. The Best Advice!

In certain corners of the web (T-mag in particular), it’s being pushed to the moon. They call it "Micro-PA"

Here’s a sampling of the claims being made:

•Subjects supplementing with PA achieved 50% greater increase in muscle cross-sectional area and lean body mass
•40% greater increase in total strength (upper and lower body), and…
•60% greater loss in body fat than the training-only group (Wilson et al 2014, in press).

The premise is that it activates mTOR, and lo and behold they have a study showing it too!

Look hard at this full study thought and you’ll find that the subjects in question ingested a collagen protein the researchers used, to isolate the effects of PA on mTOR.

https://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/47

Collagen protein = indigestible. In other words, a scoop of whey protein/other leucine rich protein would have likely “activated” mTOR just as well.

collagen ?

Yep.

NOT very bio-available, certainly compared to a quality milk protein like whey..

Rob, sorry my initial question last Friday was so curt and “drive-by” but time was very limited and I couldn’t get that link to work … I finally got the article open to explore this a little bit
What I found therein re collagen was

To standardize post-workout protein ingestion, all subjects were provided a 36-g amino acid and collagen protein blend (see Table 1 for content) mixed in a 500 ml commercial sports drink. This drink was consumed within 30 minutes post-exercise.

"All subjects"… check. “Standardize”… check.
But why that AA mix with collagen? According to Adel Moussa, “…keep in mind that the study at hand used a realistic training protocol and strength trained individuals, but it did not use what every trainee uses to boost his mTOR response after a workout: whey protein! In a conversation with one of the authors, I found out that the subjects ingested a collagen protein (amino acid composition see table from a previous study on the right) the researchers picked to isolate the effects of PA on mTOR independent of the mTOR boosting effects of leucine.” [italics mine]
…
“Furthermore, the underlying mechanism, i.e. the potent stimulation of the mTOR pathway, was confirmed in an in-vitro analysis with human muscle cells (Gundermann. 2013) and the oral bioavailability was confirmed and quantified in study #3 (Purpura. 2013).”

An article at https://www.cyberlipid.org/phlip/pgly02.htm
provides some background on PA (and also mentions the mTor connection)

Phosphatidic acid and its lyso derivatives are considered to have signaling properties whose the importance in cell biology is progressively growing (review in Hla T et al., Science 2001, 294, 1875).
Phosphatidic acid is a central precursor for the synthesis of major glycerophospholipids, diacyl- and triacylglycerols. Since the early work by Moolenaar WH et al. (Nature 1986, 323, 171), phosphatidic acid is progressively being recognized as an important lipid second messenger in animal systems as well as in plants (Munnik T, Trends Plant Sci 2001, 6, 227; Testerink C et al., Plant J. 2004, 39, 527). Several proteins, including protein kinases and small G-proteins, are activated by this lipid (for review, see McPhail LC et al., Biochim Biophys Acta 1999, 1439, 277).

So, Rob, if you’re banging on the methodology, it looks pretty sound. Please check again.

But, if you’re sending out cautions about ‘biased science’ attempting to influence bros to go pay big bucks for PA isolates (ie Mediator,etc), then I second that emotion.

I don’t see any need for isolating PA out any further than the processes involved in producing lecithin. Just as (undenatured) whey accomplishes more than re-combining individual aminos, I’m thinking high quality lecithin may perform better than segregating and/or recombining (expensive) phospholipid isolates (like PA (or even PS ?? wot? )). Good lecithin has 5 -12 % PA.

So, to get at multiple mTor ‘pathway’s ( provided you are not individually a ‘negative choline responder’ ), maybe just add copious amounts of organic liquid sunflower lecithin to your peri-wkout whey punch (with some some adaptagens ‘shaken’ in ).

(... and none of us likes to hear this but) "individual results will vary"

btw folks, MassPro whey already has some lecithin added - but if any more was added it would be ‘cutting the dope’ – at least it might appear that way ratio wise...

Have a good one.

Great insight Brain!

As usual...