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This is a 2 part question:

1) I was wondering if anybody here had any experience using an Ursolic Acid based product with the BP.

2) I was wondering if anybody had any thoughts on he DHEA transdermal from Patrick Arnold's company, Prototype Nutrition. They also have a Ursolic acid spray as well.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks guys!

bulldozer wrote:This is a 2 part question:

1) I was wondering if anybody here had any experience using an Ursolic Acid based product with the BP.

2) I was wondering if anybody had any thoughts on he DHEA transdermal from Patrick Arnold's company, Prototype Nutrition. They also have a Ursolic acid spray as well.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks guys!

I haven't used Patrick's DHEA Trans (prefer to make my own), but if I had to use one - I'd be using his. He is the undisputed king of steroid biochemistry.

As for Ursolic Acid, first I've heard of it in a trans. The feedback I've seen on it has been mixed at best, and I'm wondering if this is why the new delivery method has been devised.

Patrick is one of those guys in the business who never got his due. Extremely innovative/intelligent, he would up being the fall guy in the BALCO/Victor Conte/Barry Bonds fiasco. Everyone else got rich, he went to jail.

Sad really. I don't like seeing innovators wind up like this. He is largely unsupported except by a loyal, hardcore following. Even on his own board/sub-forum at AM, you see kiddies posting things like, "Why does Ursobolic suck so hard..."

C'mon kid, have some class...

Thanks for the response Rob.

I agree with your views on Patrick, the guy is extremely knowledgable, and it's unfortunate his reputation took such a hit with the whole BALCO incident.

I've seen his posts on AM (yours as well) and he has his fan boys. But yes the reason he released a trans UA product, was to increase its bioavailability in the body, which was a problem with people taking oral UA. They were needing to take alot of pills to get some benefits. The trans seems to negate that issue. I've seen a couple logs, and the results seem impressive.

Thanks for the response!

Is there suppose to be a synergy between the two? if so how?
Also update if you end up running them bud, would be interested to see the results.

I'm not too sure about synergy between the two products. I haven't found any logs/reviews from people running the two.

I'll be sure to leave a review, if not log my upcoming BP run. It will be my first with V3.

Isn't UA just an extract from apple peels? My followup question being... why not just eat an apple a day?

tufluk wrote:Is there suppose to be a synergy between the two? if so how?
Also update if you end up running them bud, would be interested to see the results.

Really doubt that.Almost every case Ive seen that word used its marketing bull.Only real synergy I seen is I think Synthagen and synergy between testosterone, GH, insulin being circulating at the same time.

UA in fact has been found to be anabolic, but on the bad side, it has also been found to damage DNA...no amount of anabolicness is enough to take something that damages DNA to the point that apparently does...

matter2003 wrote:UA in fact has been found to be anabolic, but on the bad side, it has also been found to damage DNA...no amount of anabolicness is enough to take something that damages DNA to the point that apparently does...

Couldn't you say the same about Orotic Acid?

aron7awol wrote:

matter2003 wrote:UA in fact has been found to be anabolic, but on the bad side, it has also been found to damage DNA...no amount of anabolicness is enough to take something that damages DNA to the point that apparently does...

Couldn't you say the same about Orotic Acid?

Actually no you couldn't, unless you are a rat. Pertinent study information below:

Safety Of Orotate Supplementation

The build up of pyrimidine nucleotide precursors in the liver and the subsequent increase of very-low-density-lipoproteins, VLDL (fats) in the rats has been a concern to many regarding supplement orotate use in humans!

However, based on all available evidence (including human studies) this is not a concern and seems to be a condition confined to only to rats for many reasons including: Low levels of 5 nucleotidase activity (not low in comparison in humans) [20], very low metabolism of OA by other tissues outside of liver and kidney [21], and low excretion rates from bile and urine [22, 23].

Because of these poor metabolic handling problems in rodents a slow but steady build up of plasma uridine and cytodine occur and soon a subsequent accumulation of VLDL in said tissues [24]. These metabolic inadequacies in rodent tissues are not present in the human body. So based on the current evidence there seems to be no negatives of orotate supplementation and those suggesting other wise clearly have misunderstood the biochemistry behind orotate supplementation.

Furthermore in the only well controlled human studies carried out on patients with clinically diagnose heart disease as well as healthy athletes show only positive effects of orotate supplementation on both heart function, blood profiling (lipid profiling) and exercise performance/capacity [16, 17].

Further data on supplementation on hamsters, mice and guinea pigs with OA show no influence on lipid metabolism suggesting that the negative of OA are truly specific to rats [4, 20-24].

matter2003 wrote:Actually no you couldn't, unless you are a rat. Pertinent study information below:

Safety Of Orotate Supplementation

The build up of pyrimidine nucleotide precursors in the liver and the subsequent increase of very-low-density-lipoproteins, VLDL (fats) in the rats has been a concern to many regarding supplement orotate use in humans!

However, based on all available evidence (including human studies) this is not a concern and seems to be a condition confined to only to rats for many reasons including: Low levels of 5 nucleotidase activity (not low in comparison in humans) [20], very low metabolism of OA by other tissues outside of liver and kidney [21], and low excretion rates from bile and urine [22, 23].

Because of these poor metabolic handling problems in rodents a slow but steady build up of plasma uridine and cytodine occur and soon a subsequent accumulation of VLDL in said tissues [24]. These metabolic inadequacies in rodent tissues are not present in the human body. So based on the current evidence there seems to be no negatives of orotate supplementation and those suggesting other wise clearly have misunderstood the biochemistry behind orotate supplementation.

Furthermore in the only well controlled human studies carried out on patients with clinically diagnose heart disease as well as healthy athletes show only positive effects of orotate supplementation on both heart function, blood profiling (lipid profiling) and exercise performance/capacity [16, 17].

Further data on supplementation on hamsters, mice and guinea pigs with OA show no influence on lipid metabolism suggesting that the negative of OA are truly specific to rats [4, 20-24].

Thanks for this info, it's very interesting. If it has been orotic acid-induced nucleotide pool imbalance which has promoted liver carcinogenesis in rat studies, and humans do not get nucleotide imbalances from orotic acid supplementation due to metabolic differences, then maybe there is no reason to worry about orotic acid promoting carcinogenesis in humans. Do you have links to any studies showing that orotates do not cause nucleotide pool imbalances in humans?

aron7awol wrote:

matter2003 wrote:Actually no you couldn't, unless you are a rat. Pertinent study information below:

Safety Of Orotate Supplementation

The build up of pyrimidine nucleotide precursors in the liver and the subsequent increase of very-low-density-lipoproteins, VLDL (fats) in the rats has been a concern to many regarding supplement orotate use in humans!

However, based on all available evidence (including human studies) this is not a concern and seems to be a condition confined to only to rats for many reasons including: Low levels of 5 nucleotidase activity (not low in comparison in humans) [20], very low metabolism of OA by other tissues outside of liver and kidney [21], and low excretion rates from bile and urine [22, 23].

Because of these poor metabolic handling problems in rodents a slow but steady build up of plasma uridine and cytodine occur and soon a subsequent accumulation of VLDL in said tissues [24]. These metabolic inadequacies in rodent tissues are not present in the human body. So based on the current evidence there seems to be no negatives of orotate supplementation and those suggesting other wise clearly have misunderstood the biochemistry behind orotate supplementation.

Furthermore in the only well controlled human studies carried out on patients with clinically diagnose heart disease as well as healthy athletes show only positive effects of orotate supplementation on both heart function, blood profiling (lipid profiling) and exercise performance/capacity [16, 17].

Further data on supplementation on hamsters, mice and guinea pigs with OA show no influence on lipid metabolism suggesting that the negative of OA are truly specific to rats [4, 20-24].

Thanks for this info, it's very interesting. If it has been orotic acid-induced nucleotide pool imbalance which has promoted liver carcinogenesis in rat studies, and humans do not get nucleotide imbalances from orotic acid supplementation due to metabolic differences, then maybe there is no reason to worry about orotic acid promoting carcinogenesis in humans. Do you have links to any studies showing that orotates do not cause nucleotide pool imbalances in humans?

The rat/OA data is just that - applicable to rats. Trust me, I gave this a REAL hard look, while formulating Synthagen. Even assuming humans were susceptible to the same, you'd have to take anywhere from 5-8 GRAMS of OA daily. Synthagen doesn't contain anywhere near this amount, yet it DOES contain the exact amount of OA found in the literature to impart all of its benefits.

Safety is even more important than efficacy IMO, when formulating supplements. De-facto, you can rest assured Synthagen is as healthy as it is effective. Some of the blood work is already showing this to be true. I'd encourage you to run labs too, if nothing else for your own peace of mind...