The Original Online BODYBUILDING SUPPLEMENTS FORUM. Advanced Techniques. Pro Tips & Insights. The Best Advice!

Adaptogen N gets a lot of talk on here. I was curious about the DHEA as a stand alone means of taking DHEA. Does AN have enough DHEA in it to meet requirements or could it be taken in conjunction with AN? Also, should the DHEA be cycled?

Yes, it provides the OPTIMAL amount of DHEA to convert to test (not mega-dosed, which could convert to estrogen).

Like everything, DHEA should be cycled yes. Consider 3 caps/night for 3 weeks, then 3 caps/night M-F with weekends off.

You can run it a LONG time that way and see great gains!

Isn't it true that running DHEA as a stand-alone can be more problematic than beneficial?

Absolutely.

Why? B/C it can be converted to estrogen, that's why! BIG problem if you're not managing it correctly....

how would the DHEA conversion work in a female user, then??
Would it go straight to estrogen? or would some T come out of it too?

beefcake66 wrote:how would the DHEA conversion work in a female user, then??
Would it go straight to estrogen? or would some T come out of it too?

Men probably get most estrogen from such things via aromatization. I imagine that if you don't go too high, almost all will be testosterone. Of course, people can't really agree on what is too high. In theory, it would vary. I think most agree that going to about 1000ng/dl of testosterone is safe and won't cause gyno. The more testosterone you get, the more likely aromatization will kick in and convert the excess to "estradiol" which is an ESTROGEN. THAT is what causes gyno.

I think women get most of the testosterone, and perhaps ALL of it, from the adrenals. And women get VERY little testosterone. It is generally LESS than about 95ng/dl! Since women haven't really used testosterone, and don't have much need for it, anything much higher than this, and even around 95ng/dl can cause anything from the minor stuff women complain of, like facial hair, to more embarrasing things like a deepening voice, etc... Still, most of the DHEA will probably convert to estrogen. Women DO need some testosterone, and wouldn't enjoy sex if they didn't have any. Anything between 20 and 95ng/dl is considered normal. For men it is about 300-1000ng/dl. People can't agree on the EXACT ranges, but most seem to agree with these numbers.

Frankly, if I were a woman, I would want to take as few chances of getting testosterone as possible. They can probably be VERY happy with say 60ng/dl. Men are less likely to get virilizing changes, outside of muscle growth, because they have already been exposed to so much of it, and wouldn't mind much if they did. Of course, they don't want gyno either!

BTW just to clarify, the adrenals make DHEA and some estrogen and some testosterone. The testicles mostly convert DHEA to testosterone. The ovarys mostly convert DHEA to estrogen. The aromatization occurs via an enzyme, and it converts testosterone to estrogen. There is ANOTHER enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT, which can cause hair loss. DHT is probably the most important hormone for males though. Apparently it is stronger than testosterone, and is what changes fetuses that will be male into males. So DHT isn't the chemical garbage some make it out to be.

Steve

seasoned wrote:

beefcake66 wrote:how would the DHEA conversion work in a female user, then??
Would it go straight to estrogen? or would some T come out of it too?

Men probably get most estrogen from such things via aromatization. I imagine that if you don't go too high, almost all will be testosterone. Of course, people can't really agree on what is too high. In theory, it would vary. I think most agree that going to about 1000ng/dl of testosterone is safe and won't cause gyno. The more testosterone you get, the more likely aromatization will kick in and convert the excess to "estradiol" which is an ESTROGEN. THAT is what causes gyno.

I think women get most of the testosterone, and perhaps ALL of it, from the adrenals. And women get VERY little testosterone. It is generally LESS than about 95ng/dl! Since women haven't really used testosterone, and don't have much need for it, anything much higher than this, and even around 95ng/dl can cause anything from the minor stuff women complain of, like facial hair, to more embarrasing things like a deepening voice, etc... Still, most of the DHEA will probably convert to estrogen. Women DO need some testosterone, and wouldn't enjoy sex if they didn't have any. Anything between 20 and 95ng/dl is considered normal. For men it is about 300-1000ng/dl. People can't agree on the EXACT ranges, but most seem to agree with these numbers.

Frankly, if I were a woman, I would want to take as few chances of getting testosterone as possible. They can probably be VERY happy with say 60ng/dl. Men are less likely to get virilizing changes, outside of muscle growth, because they have already been exposed to so much of it, and wouldn't mind much if they did. Of course, they don't want gyno either!

BTW just to clarify, the adrenals make DHEA and some estrogen and some testosterone. The testicles mostly convert DHEA to testosterone. The ovarys mostly convert DHEA to estrogen. The aromatization occurs via an enzyme, and it converts testosterone to estrogen. There is ANOTHER enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT, which can cause hair loss. DHT is probably the most important hormone for males though. Apparently it is stronger than testosterone, and is what changes fetuses that will be male into males. So DHT isn't the chemical garbage some make it out to be.

Steve

GREAT answer Steve!!!

God how I wish you would be on here full time. I could sleep...

Thanks Rob,

I've been studying up a lot on the endocrine system lately. Anyway, I think that explains why people think DHEA is such a potshot. Personally, I think it is simply that those that have a lot of testosterone have it convert to estrogen. The same thing happens with most anabolic steroids, including exogenous testosterone. I say exogenous, because they know EXACTLY what changed, and yet the opposite effect happens. I mean you inject a LOT of testosterone, which WON'T create breast tissue, and suddenly start growing breasts!?!?!? You know something is causing estrogen to increase a lot.

BTW another interesting little fact. The aromatization will actually shut down LH which shuts down endogenous testosterone. THAT is how testicular atrophy happens from anabolic steroids. They convert to estrogen, shut down LH which shuts down testosterone, and the testicles have nothing to do. And anabolic steroids are still given, AND thay tend to last longer anyway.

That CAN'T happen if you only have endogenous testosterone, because THAT testosterone would drop because the testicles aren't making as much, less aromatization happens, the LH starts back up, and so do the testicles. That also keeps estrogen low enough that you don't get gyno.

Steve

PM me Steve.

Time to put that mind of yours to work. And yes, you will get paid. Might be $$$, might be something else...

I should know this by now and this is good info here..How much DHEA is in 3tabs of AN? I'm looking at the banned substance list for a competition and DHEA in excess of 50mg per day is illegal.

dracotdrgn wrote:I should know this by now and this is good info here..How much DHEA is in 3tabs of AN? I'm looking at the banned substance list for a competition and DHEA in excess of 50mg per day is illegal.

DHEA IS a hormone, called "the mother hormone". Mother refers to the fact that other hormones are derived from it. t doesn't mean it is feminine in any way. And a lot of people say you shouldn't take over 50mg. Some COUNTRIES have apparently outlawed it, at least for import. Like I said though, it really VARIES! There ARE, for example, a lot of people saying you shouldn't take more than like 60Grams of protein a day, REGARDLESS of weight. OTHERS say 1GR/KG, others say 1GR/POUND, and some say even over 2GR/pound! AND, of course there is a doubt about what weight they are talking about, lean or total! BTW, KG=2.2POUNDS SO, with my approx lean weight.... GR/KG=91GR 2GR/Pound=400GR That is a BIG difference.

As to your question, I'll have to defer to someone else.

Steve

dracotdrgn wrote:I should know this by now and this is good info here..How much DHEA is in 3tabs of AN? I'm looking at the banned substance list for a competition and DHEA in excess of 50mg per day is illegal.

It's proprietary to MASS so I'd consult them. Wouldn't want you to get flagged for anything.

DHEA is referred to as the "mother hormone" but if you look closely there's one more up the chain..... pregnenolone.

Interesting little bugger I've used in "unorthodox" ways...

It's 25 a cap in Adaptogen N, so I'd limit it to two a night. Skip a couple days a week after 3 weeks, and limit thereafter as needed.

Many use only two a night, and then surge at specific times.

Best to you, Steve.

Just started a VERY interesting experiment with Adaptogen N.

Hmmmmm...