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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:21 pm
by BrainSquirt
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:33 pm
by BrainSquirt
RobRegish wrote:
Now, your focus on KA around the workout is timely. John is currently working with such a protocol and has noted some interesting results. Maybe we'll look into it further but again, you're right on with this stuff.
re KA This time
On wkout days - I'm doing 1 KA(red lid, new version) before wkout, 1 after wkout and 1 (white lid, previous version) near bedtime.
On subsequent days - just one before the most physical thing I do that day and none on total rest days. Thinking of moving those to near bedtime to get the adaptogen components closer to middle of night rebuilding... thoughts?
Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:45 pm
by RobRegish
Interesting question.
I honestly don't see KA as a nightime formula. Adaptogen N fits that role perfectly. Couple of reasons why.
KA's contents leverage the effects of food far moreso than AN. For example, 4-hydroxyisoleucine in the absence of carbohydrates (which you should limit prior to bed as they suppress GH).... doesn't give it much chance to optimally regulate insulin levels/glucose disposal. We know insulin facilitates creatine uptake too, so the same goes for the Kre-Alkalyn in there. RCE does so many things it's difficult to judge but the big two are glucose disposal and protein synthesis which again in the absence of significant carbs/protein..... not optimal. The L-dopa is the wildcard but even that has some glucose disposal properties if memory serves, in addition to positively modulating GH, test etc.
I don't think it's a total waste but certainly given the choice.... consume with a meal and a pre/post workout one at that. You're on the right track Brain.
Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:49 pm
by RobRegish
Would love to know more about what made them great. Please expound! I'm very interested in what people can do to replicate such conditions. Likely differs from person to person but way overlooked, in my opinion.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:54 am
by askmass
RobRegish wrote:Now, your focus on KA around the workout is timely. John is currently working with such a protocol and has noted some interesting results.
That's right, Rob.
My time is limited, but I will come back and properly expound on my findings soon.
In a nutshell, I've been experimenting with using Kre-Anabolyn in multiple dosages spread out every 2-3 hours as solely a post exercise recovery aid - with extremely good success.
For instance, we lifted tonight and post workout I had my usual two scoops of Mass Pro MVP in pineapple juice, along with a teaspoon of coconut oil and one KA cap. Two hours later, a sit down meal of 3 eggs in olive oil, some sprouted gain toast w/honey, blue berries, etc. and another scoop of Mass Pro and KA cap.
Tomorrow morning I will ride the bike for 3 hours early am. I'll do a light "breakfast" of four scoops of Mass Pro Amino in lemon juice, 2 large fruits, my vitamin array of 2 Multi-Life plus extra mag/potassium and hit the road... about an hour into it, I'll stop for a red bull, and then 24 ounces of Gatorade (use the powder mixed in water, NOT the pre-made liquid junk w/ HFCS) will carry me through the rest of the ride... well, that and a boatload of endorphins!
After the ride... I'll have one KA cap about every 3 hours in the general fashion outlined above in the post workout. One with every single shake/meal, all day and night. I'll wind up taking in 5-6 or more by days end.
The recovery and gains are top notch, let me tell you. I was having increasing recovery issues as my amount of time on the bike increased up to and beyond 3 hours. I could do the work and max it with day before foods/supps, but my recovery was really starting to lag. This regimen has made a very big difference for me in that area.
And, as you may have guessed, on off days I'm not taking any KA at all.
I'm not discounting the BP protocol one bit, because I love it for that style of training... it's absolutely unmatched for muscular gains. But, for this use, long distance cycling, I've found the post workout shotgun to do the trick for recovery.
My best to you guys.
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:14 pm
by BrainSquirt
Cycle 3 Phase 2 Day 16
My lifting workouts this phase continue to be slow, thorough, and heavy. . Lightening up on the loaded stretches now except for keeping up the hamstring stretches with 60 lbs on the seating row pullies and just let it pull my back and head twds my knees...
Have gained 6 lbs – it would have been more but I’ve also been sweating outdoors a lot.
Am persisting in the intu-flow every AM and also pre workout or play and prasara / stretching afterwards. Am just going to ‘do it’ for about 4 months before making any objective assessments of it efficacy or talking it up….
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:30 pm
by BrainSquirt
Rob, re some useful/remedial deadlift tips and
RobRegish wrote:Would love to know more about what made them great. Please expound!
“expound” = Behind my interest in this series is the question of how could I safely add another ~ 60 lbs to my deadlift limits this coming winter. By chance maybe - but so far most of my exposure to the zhealth crowd was coaches and ‘health-nuts’, so to get the perspective of a how a real lifter used it had some utility. He mentioned progression to loaded mobility work, which makes sense…
Session 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzS1Db0k4No had the most meat for me personally. My Takeaways from the series were mostly reminders of things for me to be more aware of during the deadlift. Practically it guided me to slow down, drop down to a bar and two or four 45 plates and work on form, then add weight back on and see if the form 'stuck'.
Things for me to experiment with were bar proximity to shins at start, just the right balance of sitting back into heels at the beginning and through first part of lift, head and eye positions during the lift, the timing of straightening knees and rolling shoulders back, etc.
He also talked about the role of the lower spinal ‘erector’ muscles in the lift and how the sumo deadlift significantly modifies their role, etc.
Basically, the body adapts to what it does. If I'm doing it wrong, it just gets better at doing it wrong and not better at doing it right. ... maybe I'm the only person on the planet affected by this
... hth
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:35 am
by RobRegish
Well, whatever you're doing it sounds like it's working. To add 6lbs this early into your Feast is fantastic!
Way to go Brain...
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:08 am
by BrainSquirt
Rob, re
RobRegish wrote:Well, whatever you're doing it sounds like it's working. To add 6lbs this early into your Feast is fantastic!
Part of this last fast was a serious dehydration period and even though I increased water consumption at / near the end of the famine, something toggled and I don’t think it took until later – so I attribute 2 or 3 of those pounds to rehydration.
Have throttled back the calories in last couple of days to about 110% but am keeping the protein at 140% and doing it ~ every five hours except for a break ~ 1/2 way between workouts. Getting used to the red palm oil gradually… it’s no wonder the only places they use it are where they ain’t got nothin’ else…
Warmed it up and 'dissolved' bulk CoQ10, curcumin, and resveratrol in it then stuck it back in frig... and do about 1 tblspoon a day
Am thinking of switching to heavier KA just after workouts instead of before and after…and doing stand alone L-Dopa x minutes before workouts. Thoughts? …and do you know a way of using the 10 test strips to get a ballpark best time for that x minutes ? The 'Industry SOP' for taking pre workout stuff in 20 before. Just wondering if I could tune / individualize that a little bit. Many thanks…
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:53 pm
by RobRegish
BrainSquirt wrote:Rob, re
RobRegish wrote:Well, whatever you're doing it sounds like it's working. To add 6lbs this early into your Feast is fantastic!
Part of this last fast was a serious dehydration period and even though I increased water consumption at / near the end of the famine, something toggled and I don’t think it took until later – so I attribute 2 or 3 of those pounds to rehydration.
Have throttled back the calories in last couple of days to about 110% but am keeping the protein at 140% and doing it ~ every five hours except for a break ~ 1/2 way between workouts. Getting used to the red palm oil gradually… it’s no wonder the only places they use it are where they ain’t got nothin’ else…
Warmed it up and 'dissolved' bulk CoQ10, curcumin, and resveratrol in it then stuck it back in frig... and do about 1 tblspoon a day
Am thinking of switching to heavier KA just after workouts instead of before and after…and doing stand alone L-Dopa x minutes before workouts. Thoughts? …and do you know a way of using the 10 test strips to get a ballpark best time for that x minutes ? The 'Industry SOP' for taking pre workout stuff in 20 before. Just wondering if I could tune / individualize that a little bit. Many thanks…
Stand alone L-dopa prior would seem to make sense, but too much will impair motor coordination/may lead to drowsiness. In my mind, it's finding the sweet spot. I'd lean toward administration about 60 min prior vs. 20 min prior. It does take some time...KA afterwards is perfectly fine.
Re the test strips: The issue here isn't that you have just 10, it's that there's no measurement to ascertain what effect that L-dopa X min prior is doing (assuming that was your question). I suppose the best use of them would be to fine tune supps/workout protocol to maximize nitrogen retention. In that respect, readings 30 min prior, 30 min into it and 30 min post would be logical and it would give you the opportunity to look at 3 different workouts/supp protocols. Let us know of your findings as now I'm curious!
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:27 pm
by BrainSquirt
Cycle 3 Phase 2 Day 20
Both workouts this week were full, slow, and heavy.
Am picking up that back(side) work needs to be complemented with good core work. Specifically the “Inner Unit” as, “the functional synergy between the transversus abdominis and posterior fibers of the obliquus internus abdominis, pelvic floor muscles, multifidus and lumbar portions of the longisssimus and iliocostalis, as well as the diaphragm.” (”The Inner Unit: A New Frontier In Abdominal Training”; Paul Chek IAAF Technical Quarterly: New Studies in Athletics, 4/99)
instead of / in addition to the “Outer Unit” (the conventional targets of fitness: rectus abdominis, obliquus externus abdominis and psoas.)
Haven’t checked weight but am sure haven’t lost any
. Just about had it with the overeating though… next week will probably drop back to day of and day after workouts and a little extra before and after aerobics.
Still working on a micro ‘blueprint’ for workout days to complement the macro BP.
The working idea
during feast phase is to raise insulinotropic activity at just the right time before workouts, do heavy killer workouts, then follow workout with nutrition, adaptagens, etc. (In a very loose, approximate way, on workout days the preworkout could be seen as the Maint Phase, the workout is the Fast Phase / stressor and the post workout is the Feast Phase.)
Am looking at building a pre-workout insulinotropic specific stack and am considering L-DOPA as one of the stack candidates.
Rob, the question about the stix was see if you had any ideas about dialing in the timing of the pre workout insulinotropic stack using ‘10 parameter‘ sticks. Hope this clarifies…
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:26 pm
by RobRegish
The role of insulin pre/during/post workout in combination with adatogens, isolated amino acids, glucose etc is a fascinating subject. That particular strategy still has some mileage left to exploit so allow me to expand on those thoughts.
- I'm a believer in a 2 to 1 ratio of fast carbs to fast protein in the form of di and tri peptides, BCAA's and select insulinogenic aminos
- I'm embarrased to admit this but I recently learned that MassPro is hydrolyzed down to an incredibly low molecular weight. I know what hydrolyzed whey in the 250-300 MW range tastes like and believe me, you'd know it too if you ever tried it. MassPro tastes so darn good I figured it couldn't be hydrolyzed down to this level.... but a good part of it is
- I'm also a believer in insulin regulating supp like 4-hydroxyisoleucine, ecdy itself as well as electrolytes and select other agents
- The "window" of opportunity so often cited focuses too much on post workout, not enough on pre and intra workout periods
I'm working on a staggered approach. I believe pre-workout time period is up to an hour prior, during is most important and then post workout moreso looking for ways to keep that window open a bit longer (I estimate it's currently open up to 2 hours post). I'll report back in more detail on that tomorrow.
The Multistix, sad to say, aren't the appropriate tool for this measurement. A glucometer is. However, the stix can be useful for guaging the ultimate outcome.... protein excretion and how to minimize it during this time. Ultimately, a combination of those two diagnostic tools would be best.
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:22 pm
by askmass
RobRegish wrote:The role of insulin pre/during/post workout in combination with adatogens, isolated amino acids, glucose etc is a fascinating subject. That particular strategy still has some mileage left to exploit so allow me to expand on those thoughts.
- I'm a believer in a 2 to 1 ratio of fast carbs to fast protein in the form of di and tri peptides, BCAA's and select insulinogenic aminos
- I'm embarrased to admit this but I recently learned that MassPro is hydrolyzed down to an incredibly low molecular weight. I know what hydrolyzed whey in the 250-300 MW range tastes like and believe me, you'd know it too if you ever tried it. MassPro tastes so darn good I figured it couldn't be hydrolyzed down to this level.... but a good part of it is
- I'm also a believer in insulin regulating supp like 4-hydroxyisoleucine, ecdy itself as well as electrolytes and select other agents
- The "window" of opportunity so often cited focuses too much on post workout, not enough on pre and intra workout periods
I'm working on a staggered approach. I believe pre-workout time period is up to an hour prior, during is most important and then post workout moreso looking for ways to keep that window open a bit longer (I estimate it's currently open up to 2 hours post). I'll report back in more detail on that tomorrow.
The Multistix, sad to say, aren't the appropriate tool for this measurement. A glucometer is. However, the stix can be useful for guaging the ultimate outcome.... protein excretion and how to minimize it during this time. Ultimately, a combination of those two diagnostic tools would be best.
Great observation, Rob.
Granted, I'm full blown into bike endurance work at present, so keep that in mind when reading the following... For me, I start a pre-workout loading of complex carbs 12-15 hours out. Tonight was health-nut styled pasta and raw veggies. It will serve me very well for tomorrows early AM ride.
I've detailed elsewhere what I'm doing more directly right before, during and after. My point is that Rob is spot on in highlighting pre/intra factors in addition to post... dial in all three specific to your body/training and it can make a HUGE difference in your results.
Both MASS PRO Amino and Kre-Anabolyn were designed to help accent, accelerate and leverage these factors... MASS PRO Whey also, but more specifically post exercise in it's case.
BTW, Rob- For the (unflavored) MASS PRO MVP version, I can't tell you how many times I've said, "you don't know how great this tastes!" to people saying "it's bland and slightly bitter"... if they only knew.
The colostrum and lecithin helps it have a much "warmer" milk taste, and for the flavored ones we can get real creative and show some natural flavoring expertise.
That's giving away perhaps too much, but it's unlikely the majors will care as it's cost prohibitive to their way of thinking.
Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:35 am
by RobRegish
Here are my latest thoughts re how best to structure pre/during/post workout nutrition:
PRE: 90 min to 1 hour before training consume 50g of slow burining carbs (oatmeal), a bit of fat (natural peanut butter) and a scoop of MassPro (24g of protein). There's your 2:1 ratio that'll set you up for an even blood sugar level going into the workout.
PERI-DURING: Begin sipping on about 25g BCAA, 12g MASS PRO and 75g of sugar/fast acting carbs 15 min prior and throughout the workout.
IMMEDIATELY POST: Finish by downing a scoop and a half of MASS PRO 37g + 75g of sugar/fast acting carb.
1.5 HOURS POST: Keep the insulin pump going by consuming another 50g of lower glycemic carbs + MASS PRO in that 2:1 ratio. This can be a whole food meal.
The whole key to this is glycogen synthase. GS is the enzyme exercise stimulates that opens up the window to enhanced glycogen storage. It allows us to pack in up to 250+g of carbs during this time. This is the research proven upper level in athletes and it's important to get this done. Why? Because you can't just top up your carbs before a workout by downing some quick sugar.
STORED muscle glycogen can be converted into ATP quickly. Not so for carbs just entering the bloodstream. It takes time for your body to store carbs as glycogen. What I'm saying is, by following the above you're really setting the table for your NEXT workout, loading your glycogen tanks to full capacity.
As mentioned prior, Kre Anabolyn can assist in packing up to 60% more glycogen during this time so it makes sense to consume around the workout on training days with this protocol. Likewise, if targeting your MASS PRO consumption this is the place to do it as it's hydrolyzed down to the 250-300 dalton level and the di-tri peptides found in the formula offer a significant advantage over whatever cheap whey you may consume outside of the workout. Research proven to stimulate more muscle growth vs. intact whey or even isolated amino mixtures.
https://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=6662795
This is an old study from 1989 on rats. While there have been even more impressive studies done on humans since then, I like to cite this one. Why? Because if you read carefully you'll notice: "The three diets had the same caloric, nitrogen, vitamin, and mineral contents. No differences in steatorrhea and fecal nitrogen were observed. The absorption rate was over 95% on the three diets. In contrast,
weight gain was statistically better on WPH
What does this tell us? Whey di and tri-peptides stimulate IGF-1 release from the liver, and it makes all the difference.
Check your 5lb jug of whey. It's a safe bet there are no di or tri peptides in it, nor is it cold processed to preserve other important whey fractions. MASS doesn't brag on MASS PRO enough and truthfully, the entire product line is laced with quality like this.
Worth it if you're looking for the best possible results.