Experiment #1:
1. Added 12 caps to 1/2 cup of water, mixed thoroughly.
2. Added 3 tbsp of de-oiled sunflower lecithin to almost boiling water, mix to dissolve.
3. Combined both mixtures in ultrasonic cleaner, run on highest setting for 4 cycles (32 mins total).
4. Used kitchen scale to weigh mixture as it is added to a mason jar. Divide weight of mixture by 12 to compute 1 cap equivalent dosage weight.
I will take a dose with lunch and dinner for the next 6 days and see if I notice anything. It's not very scientific but hopefully I'll notice something good.
Ecdy and Liposomal Encapsulation
-
BrainSquirt
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:45 pm
aron7,
Thanks for keeping us up to date.
...Been wracking my limited brains for some suggestions for how you could quantify your experiment results. (… Rob, are we dead to you ?
)
Couple questions meantime…
Are you running this in conjunction with BP cycles? and if so, which ‘version’?
How is your testosterone ‘profile’ looking ?
Where is your BMI? More importantly, is it amenable to SIGNIFICANT shifts? (or is it already near optimal?) etc.
Thanks for keeping us up to date.
...Been wracking my limited brains for some suggestions for how you could quantify your experiment results. (… Rob, are we dead to you ?
)Couple questions meantime…
Are you running this in conjunction with BP cycles? and if so, which ‘version’?
How is your testosterone ‘profile’ looking ?
Where is your BMI? More importantly, is it amenable to SIGNIFICANT shifts? (or is it already near optimal?) etc.
An update after today's lunchtime dose...
The mixture has become sour, with a yeast-like smell to it. I think it's the rice flour, it smells like sourdough. Pretty nasty to consume. I threw it in the fridge and I might finish the rest today and tomorrow to get rid of it before it gets any worse.
I am not running this with a BP cycle. I took the winter off from working out and started working out again a couple weeks ago doing a modified CC-based routine.
My testosterone profile I think is normal for a 30 year old man but I haven't tested it.
I'm 6'0" 180 lbs and probably around 12% body fat right now. My normal physiological limit is around 180 lbs and under 10% body fat, so while I do have some room for improvement, I don't have a ton.
The mixture has become sour, with a yeast-like smell to it. I think it's the rice flour, it smells like sourdough. Pretty nasty to consume. I threw it in the fridge and I might finish the rest today and tomorrow to get rid of it before it gets any worse.
I am not running this with a BP cycle. I took the winter off from working out and started working out again a couple weeks ago doing a modified CC-based routine.
My testosterone profile I think is normal for a 30 year old man but I haven't tested it.
I'm 6'0" 180 lbs and probably around 12% body fat right now. My normal physiological limit is around 180 lbs and under 10% body fat, so while I do have some room for improvement, I don't have a ton.
HELL NO!BrainSquirt wrote:aron7,
Thanks for keeping us up to date.
...Been wracking my limited brains for some suggestions for how you could quantify your experiment results. (… Rob, are we dead to you ?
Couple questions meantime…
Are you running this in conjunction with BP cycles? and if so, which ‘version’?
How is your testosterone ‘profile’ looking ?
Where is your BMI? More importantly, is it amenable to SIGNIFICANT shifts? (or is it already near optimal?) etc.
Not much I can add, 'cept for AskMass's Alkaplex recommendation. I've been using it with Synthagen lately, and it really does add a nice touch. Plus, the spinach extract is a neat little source of ecdy. Witness here, it's used in studies...
https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/47 ... l-steroid/[/i]
-
BrainSquirt
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:45 pm
Answering for myself (and likely Rob as well) generally speaking Brain.
Kre-Anabolyn is engineered to be highly bio-available.
However, if someones pH is acidic (and it's amazing how horribly off kilter many athletes' are in this regard) the simple addition of a few Alkaplex caps daily will give them a tremendous boost and wide reaching health benefits.
Kre-Anabolyn is engineered to be highly bio-available.
However, if someones pH is acidic (and it's amazing how horribly off kilter many athletes' are in this regard) the simple addition of a few Alkaplex caps daily will give them a tremendous boost and wide reaching health benefits.
A small update after finishing the first batch:
I did feel like I had a really nice muscle fullness going the last couple days of dosing. It has now been a few days that I switched to my regular 1 cap with each meal dosing and I am not experiencing the same fullness. However, I injured my back which has put a damper on my workouts so there's a lot of error in this anecdotal observation.
I will be making another batch tonight to repeat the experiment over the next week...
I did feel like I had a really nice muscle fullness going the last couple days of dosing. It has now been a few days that I switched to my regular 1 cap with each meal dosing and I am not experiencing the same fullness. However, I injured my back which has put a damper on my workouts so there's a lot of error in this anecdotal observation.
I will be making another batch tonight to repeat the experiment over the next week...
-
BrainSquirt
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:45 pm
Many thx for the posts and to Aron7 for the updates. I appreciate...
For (to a large degree, my own) clarity – I’d like to summarize (and open it to enhancements, corrections and further clarifications.)
For optimal uptake of ‘supplements’, generally and in this specific case,
1 a healthy, balanced gut biome is vital. Initially this may focus on reseeding with probiotics, but long term, imo, the focus needs to be on balancing the biome via shifting the ratios of fiber types we feed our ‘non human’ colonies of co - organisms.
2. fine tuning systemic alkaline balance via alkaline producing fruits, generous brassicas, spinach, etc, etc ( alternating btwn raw and slightly cooked, btw) , and the various green ‘powders’ (ALKAPLEX GREEN tm specific to this site) and decreasing the frequency of, but not necessarily total, intake of acid producing foods.
Significant shifts in the ‘balances’ discussed above can, in reasonable otherwise healthy atheletes, be accomplished in 3 -4 weeks.
3 Then – with KA, consider a (+ two week ?) loading period. (Note: That was a generic indication… if I remember correctly, the timing recommendations of this ‘loading’ differs to some extent across the BP protocols and is more finely tuned to specific goals. ie see the BP’s for other optimizing factors…)
- again, corrections and enhancements requested and tia :)
Now, getting back to the original topic, are more ‘synergistic delivery enhancements’ warranted or worth pursuing with KA?
Yes No Maybe…
Is ‘protection’ through the stomach acid trip indicated with KA?
Is ‘protection’ from further breakdown/deterioration in small intestine indicated?
Is ‘packaging’ for blood stream transport indicated?
Is the Kre-Alkaline a sufficient transporter of the ‘actives’ into cells?
Yes No Maybe…
AskMass has indicated that on a cost benefit basis, more encapsulation or preplacing it in (liquid) solution would not add significant traction. So, for the ‘normals’, taking the steps above should suffice.
Yes No Maybe…
but if you’re not a ‘normal’ / if you’re a bit fiddler / if you a better living through biochemistry guy … in your quest for optimizing availability of the ‘good stuff’ without damaging the ‘good stuff’, do you take an in-vitro or an in-vivo approach? (an in-vitro approach is stuff like the encapsulation techs Aron7 is trying….an in-vivo approach is like the list above + adding additional factors like co dosing compatible solvents and other co-factors…
Yes No Maybe…
“without damaging the ‘good stuff’ “ … what about a combo of lipid, aqueous/saline solvents… vacuum out the air… then dip the container in liquid nitrogen for a minute… then let it thaw … and then consume… damaging the ‘good stuff’ yet
For (to a large degree, my own) clarity – I’d like to summarize (and open it to enhancements, corrections and further clarifications.)
For optimal uptake of ‘supplements’, generally and in this specific case,
1 a healthy, balanced gut biome is vital. Initially this may focus on reseeding with probiotics, but long term, imo, the focus needs to be on balancing the biome via shifting the ratios of fiber types we feed our ‘non human’ colonies of co - organisms.
2. fine tuning systemic alkaline balance via alkaline producing fruits, generous brassicas, spinach, etc, etc ( alternating btwn raw and slightly cooked, btw) , and the various green ‘powders’ (ALKAPLEX GREEN tm specific to this site) and decreasing the frequency of, but not necessarily total, intake of acid producing foods.
Significant shifts in the ‘balances’ discussed above can, in reasonable otherwise healthy atheletes, be accomplished in 3 -4 weeks.
3 Then – with KA, consider a (+ two week ?) loading period. (Note: That was a generic indication… if I remember correctly, the timing recommendations of this ‘loading’ differs to some extent across the BP protocols and is more finely tuned to specific goals. ie see the BP’s for other optimizing factors…)
- again, corrections and enhancements requested and tia :)
Now, getting back to the original topic, are more ‘synergistic delivery enhancements’ warranted or worth pursuing with KA?
Yes No Maybe…
Is ‘protection’ through the stomach acid trip indicated with KA?
Is ‘protection’ from further breakdown/deterioration in small intestine indicated?
Is ‘packaging’ for blood stream transport indicated?
Is the Kre-Alkaline a sufficient transporter of the ‘actives’ into cells?
Yes No Maybe…
AskMass has indicated that on a cost benefit basis, more encapsulation or preplacing it in (liquid) solution would not add significant traction. So, for the ‘normals’, taking the steps above should suffice.
Yes No Maybe…
but if you’re not a ‘normal’ / if you’re a bit fiddler / if you a better living through biochemistry guy … in your quest for optimizing availability of the ‘good stuff’ without damaging the ‘good stuff’, do you take an in-vitro or an in-vivo approach? (an in-vitro approach is stuff like the encapsulation techs Aron7 is trying….an in-vivo approach is like the list above + adding additional factors like co dosing compatible solvents and other co-factors…
Yes No Maybe…
“without damaging the ‘good stuff’ “ … what about a combo of lipid, aqueous/saline solvents… vacuum out the air… then dip the container in liquid nitrogen for a minute… then let it thaw … and then consume… damaging the ‘good stuff’ yet
My $.02...
Bioavailability/duration of action aren't the problem..
Bioavailability and Pharmacokinetics
In one study, using 0.2mg/kg bodyweight ecdysteroids (as ecdysone and 20-hydroxyecdysone) ecdysone appeared to have an elimination half-life of 4 hours and 20-hydroxyecdysone an elimination half-life of 9 hours in humans.[15] An active half-life is not known in humans.
https://examine.com/supplements/Ecdysteroids/#summary2-0
So you're left with amplifying its benefits via other nutraceuticals. That's what I did when formulating Synthagen, and that'll be my approach going forward.
Having said that, I REALLY appreciate your willingness to experiment/share with us here.
Sweet.
Bioavailability/duration of action aren't the problem..
Bioavailability and Pharmacokinetics
In one study, using 0.2mg/kg bodyweight ecdysteroids (as ecdysone and 20-hydroxyecdysone) ecdysone appeared to have an elimination half-life of 4 hours and 20-hydroxyecdysone an elimination half-life of 9 hours in humans.[15] An active half-life is not known in humans.
https://examine.com/supplements/Ecdysteroids/#summary2-0
So you're left with amplifying its benefits via other nutraceuticals. That's what I did when formulating Synthagen, and that'll be my approach going forward.
Having said that, I REALLY appreciate your willingness to experiment/share with us here.
Sweet.
Thank you very much for the link, Rob. A lot of excellent information there...
A couple of thoughts:
1. Liposomal encapsulation may significantly increase half-life
2. Liposomal encapsulation may protect ecdy from degradation by gut flora
BrainSquirt, your responses are always very much appreciated. I just want to respond to your statement, "AskMass has indicated that on a cost benefit basis, more encapsulation or preplacing it in (liquid) solution would not add significant traction."
I don't think John indicated that liposomal encapsulation would not add significant traction. I think from his perspective, where he is mass-producing this stuff and shelf life is extremely important, he came to conclusion that it was not worth the tradeoff in that case.
A couple of thoughts:
1. Liposomal encapsulation may significantly increase half-life
2. Liposomal encapsulation may protect ecdy from degradation by gut flora
BrainSquirt, your responses are always very much appreciated. I just want to respond to your statement, "AskMass has indicated that on a cost benefit basis, more encapsulation or preplacing it in (liquid) solution would not add significant traction."
I don't think John indicated that liposomal encapsulation would not add significant traction. I think from his perspective, where he is mass-producing this stuff and shelf life is extremely important, he came to conclusion that it was not worth the tradeoff in that case.
-
BrainSquirt
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:45 pm
“When you get to the fork in the road, take it” Yogi BerraRobRegish wrote: ...left with amplifying its benefits via other nutraceuticals. ... that'll be my approach going forward.
Rob,
That same article you cited also asserted the following: “If ecdysteroids get to the cell, they will increase protein synthesis; quickly, potently, and for a fairly long time. ” (I noticed the If is italicized in the article). Point is - beyond the basic cofactors AskMass, etc. has indicated… the EFA’s, alkalizers, etc (factors related to Ecdy’s affinity for RXR nuclear receptors and (2nd or 3rd generation???) retinoid ligands??? calciferols, thyronines, etc.???); and beyond any brilliant “amplifying its benefits” combinations you are quite likely to come up with… beyond those all those various factors, I think with this nutraceutical we need to explore that 'if' further and create safe passage through the digestive system and on to the cellular level nuclear receptors.
We’re really all after the same thing - optimizing the benefits of these nutraceuticals. And, Rob, when you say “you're left with amplifying its benefits via other nutraceuticals” I understand why you would keep your focus there. Historically, that approach energizes me most and my first inclinations are to take that route first. This is the ‘in-vivo’ approach that I discussed above. But in this case I’m going to have to make sure the general health fundamentals are in place, add as many co-factors as possible - then resist closure and go a little further and at least bro-hypothesize around with Aron some over on the ‘in-vitro’ / ‘packaging’ / delivery side.
More good reading at
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC524647/
-
BrainSquirt
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:45 pm
Aron7,
have you looked at Polysorbate 80 or Polysorbate 60 as emulsifier in addition to (or instead of ) sunflower lecithin?
Have you looked at lowering the water ratio in your recipe?
...
Are you continuing the dosing even through the back injury induced work restriction? 'Mass' holding up?
Ya'll, have a good one
have you looked at Polysorbate 80 or Polysorbate 60 as emulsifier in addition to (or instead of ) sunflower lecithin?
Have you looked at lowering the water ratio in your recipe?
...
Are you continuing the dosing even through the back injury induced work restriction? 'Mass' holding up?
Ya'll, have a good one
I did make a few small changes on this second batch. I put a cup of water and 3 tbsp of sunflower lecithin in the blender this time, which mixed much better than last time and ended up with some foam floating on top. The foam slowly disappeared during the ultrasonic treatment and by the end of the 30 minutes the mixture seemed much more homogenous than last time. I'm also storing it in the fridge and it still smells perfectly fresh after a few days.
I've been taking it with lunch and dinner, which a lot of times includes a few eggs, so I'm getting the additional fat/lecithin in the yolks along with it.
I went with sunflower lecithin over Polysorbate only due to thinking it was more natural and therefore better, but I readily admit I have no reason to think that sunflower lecithin would be an equal/better carrier than Polysorbate in this case. Is there a reason you would suggest Polysorbate specifically?
I'm also curious why you may suggest lowering the water ratio in the recipe?
There was a 4-5 day period where I switched back to taking KA in cap form with my meals (which coincidentally was at the same time as my back injury), but as of Tuesday night I am back to the liposomal form. So this is only my 2nd full day back on it, and my back is finally feeling good enough to start working out again tomorrow.
I've been taking it with lunch and dinner, which a lot of times includes a few eggs, so I'm getting the additional fat/lecithin in the yolks along with it.
I went with sunflower lecithin over Polysorbate only due to thinking it was more natural and therefore better, but I readily admit I have no reason to think that sunflower lecithin would be an equal/better carrier than Polysorbate in this case. Is there a reason you would suggest Polysorbate specifically?
I'm also curious why you may suggest lowering the water ratio in the recipe?
There was a 4-5 day period where I switched back to taking KA in cap form with my meals (which coincidentally was at the same time as my back injury), but as of Tuesday night I am back to the liposomal form. So this is only my 2nd full day back on it, and my back is finally feeling good enough to start working out again tomorrow.