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Dragon wrote:Point taken about the bcaa's, I'll do it that way then.
I use the pepto pro crap from trueprotein and it taste like sh!t. I got the recipe from someone here actually. I think it works well but my somatype begs for carbs during the workout. My mouth was watering and I wanted to go get a box of donuts, and I almost did!!

I felt considerably weaker today having only ate one meal in the morning and then going into the gym at 4pm fasted, then having the formula pre then post, not during. I guess it takes some getting used to. I'm now straining to hit 3000 kals before I go to sleep. This is too hard.

I know digestion is basically shut off during strenous exercise but idk. Eating in the gym has made a world of difference FOR ME. I will probably stop eating those powders and just use organic juices and bananas.

My run has been a real lesson for me in terms of what I can and can't eat according to my bodytype. I tried a gallon of milk a day one week and i was literally doubled over in pain at work ( and this was with LACTAID) so I've learned to use coconut milk with whey instead. I could give many other examples but I now understand BigP's advice to focus on nutrition and the loading patterns for my first run, THEN add the supps once I know what I'm doing. ( I shoulda listened)
There is so much advice to sort through so I've decided to make myself into a kinda lab rat. For me, I'll stick to eating during my training.

Sounds to me like you know your body pretty well. Some people are more carb tolerant/dependant than others. (Ectomorph?) Based on how you feel weak without them in your training, I'd say keep them around unless your trying to aggressively cut, and you might still need more than some others during that process to avoid becoming catabolic if you are a strong ecto. It's all trial and error to some extent when trying to narrow down exactly what works for each individual. Worth the hassle in the long run though if you can stick it out through the frustrating experimentation.

This is an issue I've been really working with too through a vast amount of trial and error.

Last year I tried doing workouts on an empty stomach as Ori suggested in 'Maximize your muscle...' because he said it will boost your hormones... I'm pretty sure he was talking about GH, because I've seen other documentation that suggests that not having carbs for a few hours prior to training is good for boosting GH... But being totally empty fuel wise made for pretty unproductive training sessions.

I found that fast carbs pre-workout often became fat. To avoid this I switched to a slower carb source prior to training, but still found that unnecessary. I also tried no carbs at all around the workout, and it definitely helped me get a little leaner, but didn't do a lot for my muscle building endeavors.

I then found some studies in a text book called periodization that showed a significant drop off in performance when glycogen stores are not replenished, and that performance in subjects was enhanced by using a 4:1 carb to protein ratio about 20-30 minutes into the workout... the carbs at this time supposedly help suppress cortisol as well. Rather than adding protein to the carbs I've been using BCAAs (to help battle muscle loss) and glutamine (to help boost GH as well as suppressing cortisol) -- both of which are in protein.

Then post-workout I've been just taking a mix of protein isolate, hydrolyzed protein and leucine (with vitamins).

This seems to be the sweet spot for me, getting the best of both worlds.

the_buffer wrote:This is an issue I've been really working with too through a vast amount of trial and error.

Last year I tried doing workouts on an empty stomach as Ori suggested in 'Maximize your muscle...' because he said it will boost your hormones... I'm pretty sure he was talking about GH, because I've seen other documentation that suggests that not having carbs for a few hours prior to training is good for boosting GH... But being totally empty fuel wise made for pretty unproductive training sessions.

I found that fast carbs pre-workout often became fat. To avoid this I switched to a slower carb source prior to training, but still found that unnecessary. I also tried no carbs at all around the workout, and it definitely helped me get a little leaner, but didn't do a lot for my muscle building endeavors.

I then found some studies in a text book called periodization that showed a significant drop off in performance when glycogen stores are not replenished, and that performance in subjects was enhanced by using a 4:1 carb to protein ratio about 20-30 minutes into the workout... the carbs at this time supposedly help suppress cortisol as well. Rather than adding protein to the carbs I've been using BCAAs (to help battle muscle loss) and glutamine (to help boost GH as well as suppressing cortisol) -- both of which are in protein.

Then post-workout I've been just taking a mix of protein isolate, hydrolyzed protein and leucine (with vitamins).

This seems to be the sweet spot for me, getting the best of both worlds.

I have yet to try this approach, but I like the sound of it because you're introducing the carbs late enough in the workout that they can be absorbed absent of insulin VIA exercised induced glut4 expression. I also think that as long as you don't over due it that you can avoid any dulling of insulin sensitivity if you could replenish glycogen just shy of maximum capacity.

Since your using bcaa with carbs instead of protein and carbs, how are you adjusting the ratio of carbs to bcaa and how are you determining the total carb intake? Also, are you using a fast carb ie karbolyn for this application?

Thinking about it, this is really what I think Rob was addressing with the initial addition of the formula. We're are just further manipulating the idea to best suit our individual needs.
So, again hats off to Rob for being ahead of the game and pointing us down the path.

mikej26 wrote: Since your using bcaa with carbs instead of protein and carbs, how are you adjusting the ratio of carbs to bcaa and how are you determining the total carb intake? Also, are you using a fast carb ie karbolyn for this application?

Ya I'm using a quick carb source, I was using Karbolyn, but since it's become more difficult to get I switched to vitargo. The carb intake I have been using is based on a formula that determines the amount of glycogen you spent so it factors in the amount of time worked as well as your bodyweight. It is: 1g (carbs) x bodyweight (in kg) x hours (of training).

So if you weigh 180lbs and train for 45 minutes it would look like:
180lbs x 0.45 = 81 kg
81kg x 0.75hrs = 60.75

So you'd probably be looking at 60g carbs as a starting point in that scenario... For me the calculation worked out to about 50g, but I found I liked 40-45 better.


As for the protein to BCAAs/glutamine ratio... I've actually been keeping it simple and doing a 1:1... for example 50g of carbs would mean taking about 12.5g of protein. So I'd just take 10g BCAAs and 10g glutamine. It might be a little overkill, but a little extra of these isn't likely to become fat. Also, even though I lowered my carbs I kept BCAAs & glutamine the same.

mikej26 wrote: Thinking about it, this is really what I think Rob was addressing with the initial addition of the formula. We're are just further manipulating the idea to best suit our individual needs.
So, again hats off to Rob for being ahead of the game and pointing us down the path.

I'm 100% with you on this. Rob knows better than anyone that we're all slightly different which is why he talks a lot about somatotypes. And he's all for people taking a well-thought out approach.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll give this a shot.

I've been very curious to try the WM-HDP that is new on the scene. The only hitch is now that Dr. Connelly has gone public with its use in his new product, the only source that I was aware of is out of stock. I should've stocked up a few weeks back when my gut instinct was telling me it was the new best thing in the carb supp market.

bigpelo wrote:Very interesting position on post workout nutrition timing and macros:

https://defensenutrition.com/blog/2012/0 ... nutrition/

Here's Dr. Connelly talking about the subject of insulin resistance. Seems relevant to this post by Ori.

Dr. Connelley comes on the show 47min 30sec's in.

https://www.rxmuscle.com/hmr-radio-show/ ... ck-v15-229

mikej26 wrote:10 grams of bcaa pre is what I've been doing. More so for the fact that as cortisol levels rise during training they can be broken down rather than going catabolic.

In a conversation with Rob, he recommended to take 5g of EAA prior to training versus BCAA's...he said there is a big difference between starting the process of protein synthesis and completing it(BCAA's start it while EAA's complete it, is basically what I got from him)...going to try that once run out of BCAA's...EAA's are way cheaper to boot...37.99 for a 1000g supply...said that 5g of EAA's can boost protein synthesis by up to 600% if taken prior to workout...

ts confusing because studies show that taking 40g of quick carbs during a workout basically prevents cortisol, with only a 6% rise, while drinking only water results in a 100% increase in cortisol...

However, drinking water during cardio results in preventing cortisol from being released...

matter2003 wrote:

mikej26 wrote:10 grams of bcaa pre is what I've been doing. More so for the fact that as cortisol levels rise during training they can be broken down rather than going catabolic.

In a conversation with Rob, he recommended to take 5g of EAA prior to training versus BCAA's...he said there is a big difference between starting the process of protein synthesis and completing it(BCAA's start it while EAA's complete it, is basically what I got from him)...going to try that once run out of BCAA's...EAA's are way cheaper to boot...37.99 for a 1000g supply...said that 5g of EAA's can boost protein synthesis by up to 600% if taken prior to workout...

ts confusing because studies show that taking 40g of quick carbs during a workout basically prevents cortisol, with only a 6% rise, while drinking only water results in a 100% increase in cortisol...

However, drinking water during cardio results in preventing cortisol from being released...

Now we're talking. That makes WAY more sense. I've been using Xtend as my BCAA supp which does also contain glutamine and citraline malate, but I didn't even realize that there were EAA supps aside from protien powders. Guess we learn something everyday.

What supp are you referring too?

During a quick search I came across purple wraath which at a glance looks to be superior to xtend due to the added EAA's. Also, Animal Nitro looks promising

matter2003 wrote:In a conversation with Rob, he recommended to take 5g of EAA prior to training versus BCAA's...he said there is a big difference between starting the process of protein synthesis and completing it(BCAA's start it while EAA's complete it, is basically what I got from him)...going to try that once run out of BCAA's...EAA's are way cheaper to boot...37.99 for a 1000g supply...said that 5g of EAA's can boost protein synthesis by up to 600% if taken prior to workout...

This is an interesting concept, but I'm confused... If BCAAs start the protein synthesis and EAAs finish it, doesn't it make sense to take the BCAAs pre, then EAAs post?

the_buffer wrote:

matter2003 wrote:In a conversation with Rob, he recommended to take 5g of EAA prior to training versus BCAA's...he said there is a big difference between starting the process of protein synthesis and completing it(BCAA's start it while EAA's complete it, is basically what I got from him)...going to try that once run out of BCAA's...EAA's are way cheaper to boot...37.99 for a 1000g supply...said that 5g of EAA's can boost protein synthesis by up to 600% if taken prior to workout...

This is an interesting concept, but I'm confused... If BCAAs start the protein synthesis and EAAs finish it, doesn't it make sense to take the BCAAs pre, then EAAs post?

Well, the EAA's have BCAA's in them, as well as 6 additional amino acids that he says are used in protein synthesis...

@matter2003 - which brand of EAA were you referring to that cost $37 for 1000grams?

Please guys, stay on topic. If you want to talk pre-workout nutrition, that's perfectly fine --> start another thread! I don't want to be rude but 3/4 of this thread is way off my original post...

Back on topic: why not to take carbs right after working out and why delaying post-workout protein 60 minutes or so. You should not be afraid of cortisol and try to hinder it at all cost, it is NOT an evil hormone except if it gets too high for too long too often. Cortisol is a stress hormone necessary for the fight or fly reaction, it helps produce intense workout which leads to progression. Begin catabolic if the first step into getting anabolism. Remember famine phase? Also, growth hormone cannot be release or do is magic when insulin is present. GH is release during workout and stays high to prevent/balance cortisol damage/action to worked muscle post-workout and also GH affect the body fat burning/releasing to replenish glycogen via glucogenesis (body fat convert to glucose convert to glycogen, might be wrong spelling...) so no carbs needed then. Rising your cortisol level via intense workout and then shutting down growth hormone by taking carbs which release insulin is a sure way to overtraining IMO.

BUT! Insulin secretion is a critical step in testosterone production. So taking slow digested carbs late in the day, couples hours after workout, might be right before bed as it often help with serotonine release, kick starts testosterone production which is higher at night. At least it works for me.

Does that make sense?

Oh! and I have been doing want Ori's suggest for a week (3 workouts only) and I must say muscles felt pumped last workout and I seem a tiny bit leaner already. Will continue for another 2-3 weeks and take measurements then. (I am doing turbulence training which is more fat burning purpose then muscle building but still I look mean )

matter2003 wrote:Well, the EAA's have BCAA's in them, as well as 6 additional amino acids that he says are used in protein synthesis...

Very cool. I'll have to give that a try and compare!

bigpelo wrote:Please guys, stay on topic. If you want to talk pre-workout nutrition, that's perfectly fine --> start another thread! I don't want to be rude but 3/4 of this thread is way off my original post...

Back on topic: why not to take carbs right after working out and why delaying post-workout protein 60 minutes or so. You should not be afraid of cortisol and try to hinder it at all cost, it is NOT an evil hormone except if it gets too high for too long too often. Cortisol is a stress hormone necessary for the fight or fly reaction, it helps produce intense workout which leads to progression. Begin catabolic if the first step into getting anabolism. Remember famine phase? Also, growth hormone cannot be release or do is magic when insulin is present. GH is release during workout and stays high to prevent/balance cortisol damage/action to worked muscle post-workout and also GH affect the body fat burning/releasing to replenish glycogen via glucogenesis (body fat convert to glucose convert to glycogen, might be wrong spelling...) so no carbs needed then. Rising your cortisol level via intense workout and then shutting down growth hormone by taking carbs which release insulin is a sure way to overtraining IMO.

BUT! Insulin secretion is a critical step in testosterone production. So taking slow digested carbs late in the day, couples hours after workout, might be right before bed as it often help with serotonine release, kick starts testosterone production which is higher at night. At least it works for me.

Does that make sense?

Oh! and I have been doing want Ori's suggest for a week (3 workouts only) and I must say muscles felt pumped last workout and I seem a tiny bit leaner already. Will continue for another 2-3 weeks and take measurements then. (I am doing turbulence training which is more fat burning purpose then muscle building but still I look mean )

Sorry for getting off topic with this thread.

I am intrigued by this protocol. It does make a lot of sense in that it would allow for a prolonged oxidation of dietary and body fat via glycogen restoration from gluconeogenisis.

I think that much of the differences of opinion when it comes to having carbs post workout as oppossed to no carbs has to do with many studies having been related to maximum performance rather than body composition and long term health.

I do believe that Ori's protocol is superior in developing the overall health of the metabolism by increasing insulin sensitivity of lean tissue relative to what ones relative insulin sensitivity may be in adipose tissue. Keeping the nutrients you ingest going to the muscles and organs that need them rather than being stolen by the adipose tissue.

Very curious to see how this works out for you in the coming weeks. If all goes well, I'm keen on switching over to it.