Prohormones
Prohormones
I understand that you advertise the bp will net you prohormone like gains and the whole purpose is so one does NOT have to use steroids to get the same effects. I have done the bp once through (starting second fast today) and I gained 12 pounds which appears to be mostly muscle. This of course is quite respectable and equivalent to someone taking hdrol. But I am curious if you (Rob) or anyone else has run a prohormone while doing the bp and what was the results?
I've PH's before, always for very short periods just to see what they can do. Never within the Blueprint though. Here are my observations;
- Most were too weak to elicit any real advantage in the 3 week periods (max) I used them. The exception here was 1-AD/tren
- Most of them make you feel like crap. The exception here was 4AD.
- The gains made aren't worth the risks, IMO. If I extrapolate out my 3
week gains (about 10lbs on a 13 ethyl/tren like product), I may have
gained 15-20lbs over a 6 week run
Let's say I retained 80% of that via proper PCT. So far so good. I was uber-cautious about it and did my research, so bloodwork pre and post was a must. Gains look good right? Here's what you don't see:
- Both systolic and diastolic blood pressure jumped. Diastolic in particular
went from 65 to 85.
- HDL's (good cholesterol) went into the single digits
- Sex drive is non existent
- Moderate to high SGOT/SGPT liver enzyme elevations
All of this on a non methylated/17-alpha alkalated androgen. In other words, one of the safer ones. Now keep in mind your cost outlay.. you're not only going to be dropping money on the androgen, but all of your protective nutrients like NAC, RALA, Sesamin, Policosinol, Red yeast rice, celery seed extract etc. Then there's PCT, the cost and hassle of bloodwork. The list goes on...
Now you can recover from this (I did) but here's what's most problematic... where do you start with your poundages, etc when you come off? You're not going to be quite as strong, you're not going to recover quite as quick and you're not going to have the same work capacity. In other words, you're going to spend at least a few weeks waiting for these variables to normalize (frequency IMO, is the big one).
This is time and traction lost. I'm not into scare tactics. I think used responsibly and for brief periods you'll be just fine. But long term I think there are FAR better options (aka The Blueprint).
The other thing to consider is this: The federal legislation in 2005 ironically banned some of the safest and most effective PH's out there (4AD/1AD etc.). What are we left with today? Things like Hdrol and related compounds that are too weak, too dirty etc. to consider. You said yourself you gained 12 quality pounds your first run with BP. Your HPTA is intact and there's no need to waste any weeks on re-establishing your metabolism to set up for another natural run. You're poised now to repeat what you've learned, fine tuning it and there's no reason you can't do better!
Finally, I want to leave you with this; you can't put a price on that last point. For many, coming off PH's leads to one inevitable conclusion...more PH's. Sorry but that's just the reality.
Having said all of that I would speculate adding PH's to The Blueprint would juice the results even further. You'd still be left with many of the same issues though. I tried to say it in the Q&A ad copy;
Q. Is it safe to say someone could use this system with pro-hormones or anabolics?
A. They could, and it would lend greater "punch" to those products if they choose to use them. Really though, the system was designed with the natural athlete in mind. When you take the drugs out of the equation, out goes the safety net. Drugs make up for a host of dietary and training mistakes that would otherwise sabotage a trainees progress. More importantly, this system allows the drug free athlete to obtain "drug like" results without the drugs. Yes, you've heard it before but this time it's true. There really is a mechanism, a genetic switch you can flip that piles on muscle at an astounding rate. Best of all, it's safe, works fast and can be repeated over and over. Drugs work, that has to be acknowledged. No more lies or scare tactics. But there is another way, a better way.
Best answer to your question...
- Most were too weak to elicit any real advantage in the 3 week periods (max) I used them. The exception here was 1-AD/tren
- Most of them make you feel like crap. The exception here was 4AD.
- The gains made aren't worth the risks, IMO. If I extrapolate out my 3
week gains (about 10lbs on a 13 ethyl/tren like product), I may have
gained 15-20lbs over a 6 week run
Let's say I retained 80% of that via proper PCT. So far so good. I was uber-cautious about it and did my research, so bloodwork pre and post was a must. Gains look good right? Here's what you don't see:
- Both systolic and diastolic blood pressure jumped. Diastolic in particular
went from 65 to 85.
- HDL's (good cholesterol) went into the single digits
- Sex drive is non existent
- Moderate to high SGOT/SGPT liver enzyme elevations
All of this on a non methylated/17-alpha alkalated androgen. In other words, one of the safer ones. Now keep in mind your cost outlay.. you're not only going to be dropping money on the androgen, but all of your protective nutrients like NAC, RALA, Sesamin, Policosinol, Red yeast rice, celery seed extract etc. Then there's PCT, the cost and hassle of bloodwork. The list goes on...
Now you can recover from this (I did) but here's what's most problematic... where do you start with your poundages, etc when you come off? You're not going to be quite as strong, you're not going to recover quite as quick and you're not going to have the same work capacity. In other words, you're going to spend at least a few weeks waiting for these variables to normalize (frequency IMO, is the big one).
This is time and traction lost. I'm not into scare tactics. I think used responsibly and for brief periods you'll be just fine. But long term I think there are FAR better options (aka The Blueprint).
The other thing to consider is this: The federal legislation in 2005 ironically banned some of the safest and most effective PH's out there (4AD/1AD etc.). What are we left with today? Things like Hdrol and related compounds that are too weak, too dirty etc. to consider. You said yourself you gained 12 quality pounds your first run with BP. Your HPTA is intact and there's no need to waste any weeks on re-establishing your metabolism to set up for another natural run. You're poised now to repeat what you've learned, fine tuning it and there's no reason you can't do better!
Finally, I want to leave you with this; you can't put a price on that last point. For many, coming off PH's leads to one inevitable conclusion...more PH's. Sorry but that's just the reality.
Having said all of that I would speculate adding PH's to The Blueprint would juice the results even further. You'd still be left with many of the same issues though. I tried to say it in the Q&A ad copy;
Q. Is it safe to say someone could use this system with pro-hormones or anabolics?
A. They could, and it would lend greater "punch" to those products if they choose to use them. Really though, the system was designed with the natural athlete in mind. When you take the drugs out of the equation, out goes the safety net. Drugs make up for a host of dietary and training mistakes that would otherwise sabotage a trainees progress. More importantly, this system allows the drug free athlete to obtain "drug like" results without the drugs. Yes, you've heard it before but this time it's true. There really is a mechanism, a genetic switch you can flip that piles on muscle at an astounding rate. Best of all, it's safe, works fast and can be repeated over and over. Drugs work, that has to be acknowledged. No more lies or scare tactics. But there is another way, a better way.
Best answer to your question...
Rob or anyone can you tell me how its different if you take PH/steroids etc at the age of 18 compared to something like 21 or 25+ providing you use really good overkill proper support supps and PCT.
The only thing I saw is that if your not fully grown, you wont grow anymore when you go on the steroids.
The only thing I saw is that if your not fully grown, you wont grow anymore when you go on the steroids.
Correct on the closing of growth plates. For sure not worth it...
Beyond this, throwing more androgens atop a raging hormonal surge (natural) complicates the picture considerably. First, you may alter your baseline "normal".... for the worse. The body isn't used to testosterone dipping preciptously and rebounding at this age. It's used to high-high-high all the time. I'm not saying you'll never recover but when you do, it could be something less than high all the time. Why risk it?
Second, androgens affect the brain chemistry in ways we're just starting to understand. They make normal (read, fully physically matured) people angry and edgy. What will it do to you? I dunno. Could put some people over the edge. In others, it might cause a hell of a state of depression when coming off. Hormones are difficult to manage in those years as it is. Complicating that picture further I wouldn't advise.
There are just too many unknowns. I'm not saying it's not possible, I just know if I had those levels again.... I wouldn't even consider it and in fact, be very grateful for them.
Lastly, it must be remembered that the symphony of Test, GH, Insulin sensitivity and in fact insulin/IGF expression is the key. Elevating just one hormone in this cascade is never optimal. Elevating all of them is... which is why "pro's" use all of that + more to try and replicate. Rest assured, none of them will duplicate mother nature's brilliance in youth.
God I wish I had the answer. Honestly and truly though, adaptogens are all you need at this point. They amplify the protein synthesis side of the coin that is the rate limiting step in making new muscle: mRNA translation.
Optimize that within the context of The Blueprint and you'll do yourself (and your future self) a BIG favor.
Beyond this, throwing more androgens atop a raging hormonal surge (natural) complicates the picture considerably. First, you may alter your baseline "normal".... for the worse. The body isn't used to testosterone dipping preciptously and rebounding at this age. It's used to high-high-high all the time. I'm not saying you'll never recover but when you do, it could be something less than high all the time. Why risk it?
Second, androgens affect the brain chemistry in ways we're just starting to understand. They make normal (read, fully physically matured) people angry and edgy. What will it do to you? I dunno. Could put some people over the edge. In others, it might cause a hell of a state of depression when coming off. Hormones are difficult to manage in those years as it is. Complicating that picture further I wouldn't advise.
There are just too many unknowns. I'm not saying it's not possible, I just know if I had those levels again.... I wouldn't even consider it and in fact, be very grateful for them.
Lastly, it must be remembered that the symphony of Test, GH, Insulin sensitivity and in fact insulin/IGF expression is the key. Elevating just one hormone in this cascade is never optimal. Elevating all of them is... which is why "pro's" use all of that + more to try and replicate. Rest assured, none of them will duplicate mother nature's brilliance in youth.
God I wish I had the answer. Honestly and truly though, adaptogens are all you need at this point. They amplify the protein synthesis side of the coin that is the rate limiting step in making new muscle: mRNA translation.
Optimize that within the context of The Blueprint and you'll do yourself (and your future self) a BIG favor.
Wow Rob, your advice is invaluable! I enjoy how its very real and honest.
A. I appreciate that. I try to strike a balance between the positives and negative to allow people to make up their own minds.
I am assuming that your SGOT/SGPT liver enzymes went down after time and the stress placed on the liver was just during the cycle?
A. Yes, this is true. The liver is quite resilient to insult BUT that's assuming you have have a healthy liver to begin with. Always question assumptions...
Yes I agree, it can all add up, pct and precycle (and during cycle) supplements are definitely the most expensive part of the cycle. And it is unfortunate that so many were banned. But there are quite a few left, many of which are clones of the banned ones, such as superdrol, halodrol etc.
What was your pct that you ran after your cycles? I am going to run tamoxifen and am thinking of bridging ebol and bioforge after the hdrol cycle to try and maintain muscle mass and raise test as fast as possible. What do you think of this:
A. First PCT was ATD. That for sure gets your HPTA up fast BUT there's a problem.... ATD is a very strong anti-estrogen. Let's think about this for a second. You just put your HDL's in the cellar for some time. Squashing estrogen is going to whack HDL's again. Not good.
Recovery with 6-bromo/Formestane/Adaptogen N next time around was superior, although the same issues surrounding post cycle "searching" for a new homeostasis were still present. The AN helped more than I though insofar as libido. DHEA is important in replenishing the whole cholesterol to pregnenolone to DHEA to androstenedione to anrodiol to test equation gets disrupted.
Tamoxifen won't do much to get the HPTA normalized. You'll need either Clomid or HCG for this as they do it much better. Here again though, obtaining these "research chemicals" presents risk/complicates the picture. The Ebol/BF is good though and RCE's ability to protect the liver/improve overall bloodwork is WAY undersold.
Tamoxifen 40/40/20/20
Ebol 6/6/6/6/6/6
bioforge 3/3/3/3/3/3
Not really sure how effective this would be though. Tamoxifen should be sufficient to raise test levels fairly fast and I am not entirely sure how effective an ecdy product would be. I would imagine that if its true that ebol lowers blood pressure, stimulates immune function, decreases cortisol etc that it would be invaluable. Not many logs to go off how effective the ebol and bioforge are. What do you think Rob (or others)?
A. Honestly, I think for the "power" of Hdrol (or lack thereof) it just isn't worth the trouble. If you were guaranteed of 20+ lbs of LBM my opinion may be different but Hdrol isn't worth the mental energy/cash outlay for "maybe" 12lbs.
That's just me..
A. I appreciate that. I try to strike a balance between the positives and negative to allow people to make up their own minds.
I am assuming that your SGOT/SGPT liver enzymes went down after time and the stress placed on the liver was just during the cycle?
A. Yes, this is true. The liver is quite resilient to insult BUT that's assuming you have have a healthy liver to begin with. Always question assumptions...
Yes I agree, it can all add up, pct and precycle (and during cycle) supplements are definitely the most expensive part of the cycle. And it is unfortunate that so many were banned. But there are quite a few left, many of which are clones of the banned ones, such as superdrol, halodrol etc.
What was your pct that you ran after your cycles? I am going to run tamoxifen and am thinking of bridging ebol and bioforge after the hdrol cycle to try and maintain muscle mass and raise test as fast as possible. What do you think of this:
A. First PCT was ATD. That for sure gets your HPTA up fast BUT there's a problem.... ATD is a very strong anti-estrogen. Let's think about this for a second. You just put your HDL's in the cellar for some time. Squashing estrogen is going to whack HDL's again. Not good.
Recovery with 6-bromo/Formestane/Adaptogen N next time around was superior, although the same issues surrounding post cycle "searching" for a new homeostasis were still present. The AN helped more than I though insofar as libido. DHEA is important in replenishing the whole cholesterol to pregnenolone to DHEA to androstenedione to anrodiol to test equation gets disrupted.
Tamoxifen won't do much to get the HPTA normalized. You'll need either Clomid or HCG for this as they do it much better. Here again though, obtaining these "research chemicals" presents risk/complicates the picture. The Ebol/BF is good though and RCE's ability to protect the liver/improve overall bloodwork is WAY undersold.
Tamoxifen 40/40/20/20
Ebol 6/6/6/6/6/6
bioforge 3/3/3/3/3/3
Not really sure how effective this would be though. Tamoxifen should be sufficient to raise test levels fairly fast and I am not entirely sure how effective an ecdy product would be. I would imagine that if its true that ebol lowers blood pressure, stimulates immune function, decreases cortisol etc that it would be invaluable. Not many logs to go off how effective the ebol and bioforge are. What do you think Rob (or others)?
A. Honestly, I think for the "power" of Hdrol (or lack thereof) it just isn't worth the trouble. If you were guaranteed of 20+ lbs of LBM my opinion may be different but Hdrol isn't worth the mental energy/cash outlay for "maybe" 12lbs.
That's just me..
Interesting to see different opinions on pct. Heard mixed reviews about 6-bromo, formestane seems pretty well regarded, some even using during cycle. Hopefully the bioforge will do the same for libido, don't think I will have any problems though, seems like libido goes up for many on hdrol and pct is not to bad.
Was thinking about getting some hcg, but seems to be overkill for a mild compound such as h drol, even comments about nolva being overkill but I would not want to risk that.
I think I may pick up some DHEA, had no idea about replenishing cholesterol to pregnenolone, I thought it was more of a mood uplifter, which would be good coming off a cycle and possibly being lethargic.
Was thinking about getting some hcg, but seems to be overkill for a mild compound such as h drol, even comments about nolva being overkill but I would not want to risk that.
I think I may pick up some DHEA, had no idea about replenishing cholesterol to pregnenolone, I thought it was more of a mood uplifter, which would be good coming off a cycle and possibly being lethargic.