DIM, Estrogen and You

[matter2003]

I have come to the belief that my estrogen(estradiol) levels are elevated after doing some extensive research on the subject(estrogen dominance), and believe that some others would benefit from the information.

Researchers are starting to believe that excessive estrogenic substances in our food, water, pesticides, plastics, shampoos, and many other things we come in contact with every day is causing more and more cases of estrogen dominance by wreaking havoc on our hormonal balance(both men AND women). Outside of our normal estrogen that is produced, we are also exposed on a daily basis to phytoestrogens and xenoestrogens. Phytoestrogens are plant based estrogens such as flax seed lignans, that mimic natural estrogen by being very similar in structure. They are relatively weak estrogens that are cleared out fairly easily by the body, and are preferable to xenoestrogens, which are estrogenic substances found in things such as plastic, pesticides, shampoos and other objects we contact every day. These are very strong and are hard for the body to get rid of. Every time you heat up food in plastic containers and drink water out of plastic bottles, you are ingesting xenoestrogens(Bisphenol-A). In fact, researchers have discovered that in each generation is now producing less testosterone than the preceding generation. Your fathers had 15-20% more testosterone than you do, and likewise with you and your sons.

In fact, there are a few ways to get a pretty good idea of if you have elevated estradiol levels without taking a hormone test. If you have male pattern baldness, you likely have excessive levels of estrogen. For years scientists have said that DHT is responsible for male pattern baldness, but this only happens in the presence of excessive estrogen levels. DHT by itself will NOT cause this issue. Also, researchers have determined that men with the highest ratio of Testosterone to Estrogen also have the lowest levels of abdominal fat, and that the more abdominal fat you have, the worse your Testosterone to Estrogen ratio is. This is not surprising since excessive amounts of fat, especially abdominal fat, end up causing a negative feedback loop. Fat cells produce more estrogen, which then signals the body to produce more SHBG, which then binds up more testosterone, leaving you with ever worsening Testosterone to Estrogen ratios.

DiIndolylMethane(DIM) is a substance directly related to Indole-3-Carbinol, which is found in high amounts in foods such as broccoli, cauliflower and kale. However, I3C cannot be used directly by the body, 2 molecules of I3C must first be converted into DIM by contact with stomach acid, which made I3C's effectiveness dependent on digestion. I3C is also unstable, while DIM is very stable, making DIM a much better choice.

DIM is similar in structure to estrogen and therefore stimulates more efficient estrogen metabolism. To be metabolised by the body, estrogen must be combined with oxygen as part of oxygen metabolism. Supplementing the diet with DIM and eating cruciferous vegetables increases the specific aerobic metabolism for estrogen, multiplying the chance for estrogen to be broken down into its beneficial, or ‘good’ estrogen metabolites. These ‘good’ estrogen metabolites are known as the 2-hydroxy estrogens. These are renowned for protecting the heart, brain and showing antioxidant effects.

Good estrogen metabolites increase and bad metabolites decrease. These include the 16-hydroxy estrogens, which can cause cancer. These are promoted by obesity and manmade environmental chemicals – the lead to weight gain, cancer and uterine cancer. Slow metabolism of estrogen will leave too much unmetabolised active estrogen known as estradiol in the body.

In addition, these "good" estrogen metabolites have a few other key benefits. They actively release stored fat by slowing the breakdown of catecholamines(Epinephrine and Norepinephrine) and by increasing the protein receptors on fat cells that these catecholamines bind to to release the fat.

Heading down a slightly off topic path, it would appear that Yohimbine HCL and DIM would very nicely compliment each other in this area. Yohimbine HCL blocks the receptors in the brain that measure the amount of catecholamines in the bloodstream(prevents a negative feedback loop), which induces the body to release more of these chemicals, while DIM slows the rate at which these chemicals are broken down. YHCL also effectively acts as an Alpha-2 receptor antagonist, which helps to target the abdominal area for fat loss(abdominal area has a lot of alpha-2 receptors compared to rest of body) in men, so this is very interesting to say the least. So in this scenario, you would have greater than normal levels of catecholamines circulating while their breakdown is slowed down.

Back on topic, higher levels of good estrogen metabolites also help to increase free testosterone by "bumping" testosterone off SHBG. These good estrogen metabolites are the only known metabolites to have a higher affinity for SHBG than Testosterone does, so they will bind to these before testosterone will, leading to higher circulating levels of "Free Testosterone", the only form that has the effects we want it to.

Optimum hormone balance for men is defined by strong testosterone activity and the lowest possible level of unmetabolised estrogen.

Loss of efficient estrogen metabolism in middle-aged men has been attributed to various causes including regular alcohol use, obesity, zinc deficiency, and exposure to drugs or environmental chemicals that slow estrogen metabolism. Obesity is accompanied by the vicious cycle of increased conversion of testosterone into estrogen by enzymes within fat cells that lead to higher estrogen levels. This in turn provokes further weight gain. As men become overweight due to overeating and a lack of exercise, estrogen production increases more. Obesity increases estrogen accumulation in addition to increasing the risk of both heart disease and prostate cancer. Estrogen accumulation causes a rise in testosterone-binding protein and a loss in free testosterone. One study found a dramatic age-related accumulation of estrogen in prostate gland tissue. DIM can promote the conversion of estrogen into metabolites that are known to protect the prostate gland from unwanted estrogen stimulation.

Another problem associated with elevated estrogen levels in men is abnormal growth of the prostate gland. Though this growth, which is known as benign prostatic hypertrophy, is often attributed to testosterone, estrogen is just as powerful a growth promoter. This has been proved in studies where the level of circulating estrogen has been the best predictor of the degree of enlargement of the prostate gland.

Even more impressive is research showing that unmetabolised estrogen accumulates in prostate tissue in men as they age. Exposure of human prostate tissue to unmetabolised estrogen in the laboratory did indeed result in activation and increased production of prostate specific antigen protein (PSA). The PSA protein level in men’s blood is now used as a screening test to determine the severity of prostate enlargement or to determine the chance of prostate cancer. Recent studies also have shown that estradiol, the active form of estrogen, causes the prostate gland to increase its production of prostate specific antigen (PSA). Increased PSA production, however, can be inhibited by the ‘good’ estrogen metabolites promoted by DIM. This indicates that ‘good’ estrogen metabolites are more beneficial for prostate health than unmetabolised estrogen like estradiol.

Various supplements, including DIM, can now be used to reduce the risk of prostate enlargement and promote a healthy prostate. Optimum testosterone-to-estrogen hormonal balance achieved wit the use of DIM can help to preserve a youthful urinary tract, prevent age-related prostate growth, and perhaps reduce the risk of prostate cancer.

Just thought I would take a few minutes to bring to light something that might be often overlooked when talking about supplementation, but that could have real benefits that might far outweigh a lot of other things. DIM could be extremely helpful in balancing hormonal profiles especially if you suspect estrogen levels are elevated, or you are carrying high levels of abdominal fat/have male pattern baldness. Even if you don't, its natural propensity to assist in fat burning and increasing free testosterone might be of interest.

[austinb37]

Great write up Matt, keep them coming!

In my own research I have come across the same topic. Mike Mahler is another great resource for this subject. He is another self taught guru (like Rob) who talks a lot about hormone optimization. I wrote to him after hearing him speak on the SHR radio show and asked for his show notes. For addressing estrogen dominance these are the supplements that he recommends (after diet and lifestyle changes of course )

Addressing Estrogen Dominance
1. Nettle Root: frees testosterone and blocks conversion of testosterone into estrogen. Blocks estrogen from the prostate as well as DHT.

2. Melatonin: Source naturals sublingual spray to lower estrone. 1-3mg. If you get nightmares try melatonin transdermal creams.

3. Resveratrol: reduces receptor uptake of estrogen, increases lutenizing hormone levels to increase testosterone. Potent antioxidant as well and lowers inflammation:

4. Triazole: blocks the conversion of T into E and blocks estrogen receptors. Very potent stuff! 2 caps 2x per day

5. Calcium D Glucarate: 500mg 3x per day with meals. Helps the liver detoxify excess estrogens and clear the estrogens out of the body..

[BrainSquirt]

Yep, good article. Thanks.

...from Alt.Cruise doc

The Free Testosterone maintenance supplements -
Diindolylmethane (bioResponse DIM)
Lecithin
Phosphatidylserine
L-alpha glycerylphosphosphorylcholine
bulk stinging nettle leaves
freeze dried stinging nettle
Myomin 4 per day
During Alternative Cruise, take high doses of each of these 6 days a week , in the mid to late afternoon. Except for the lecithin and PS, gradually taper off all the others to no dose during last 10 days of the phase.

Note: the focus in Alt Cruise was general hormone balance, not just estrogen and estrogenics

[biscuits]

nice thanks

[thicketman]

Here's another good read. I'm sending this article out to all my family and friends.

https://www.dimfaq.com/site/articles.htm

[austinb37]

After doing a little research it appears that stinging nettle also acts as a natural anti-allergen. It could be useful for someone who has allergies and gets bad side effects from the prescription or OTC allergy meds.

I also found this...
A recently identified-compound in nettle root, 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran, is now used in some testosterone support products since it can increase free testosterone by occupying binding sites on a protein (SHBG) that ordinarily binds to free testosterone, rendering it biologically inactive.

[matter2003]

After doing a little research it appears that stinging nettle also acts as a natural anti-allergen. It could be useful for someone who has allergies and gets back side effects from the prescription or OTC allergy meds.

I also found this...
A recently identified-compound in nettle root, 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran, is now used in some testosterone support products since it can increase free testosterone by occupying binding sites on a protein (SHBG) that ordinarily binds to free testosterone, rendering it biologically inactive.

Yup, Stinging Nettle binds to SHBG the same way "good" estrogens do. I take Athletix Division 1, which is 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran as part of my T boosting stack...

[JGS2012]

Nice Write up. I have read some good articles on this but I enjoyed this one allot.

I like to add Kale and broccoli for anti estrogen effects - amongst others when I juice but I also make sure I get enough iodine to counter any potential goitrogenic effect.

I think it is also important when taking DIM to support the liver and the whole intestinal tract from digestion, to elimination to make sure you excrete excess estrogens.

I like Lemon juice (whole lemon), Beetroot, and its juice, garlic, onion , parsley and cilantro along with herbs such as Burdock root, Dandelion, Yellow dock, sarsaparilla, Turmeric as well as - NAC, L Cysteine, Methionine, Taurine, Zink, Magnesium, Iodine, selenium, Sulfur, B complex + extra B6, B9, B12, methionine, choline, and betaine ( you can get the right 'types' of each at the right doses in some pre-made mthylation supplements) and adequate levels of Vitamin D ( I like sunshine but here in he UK we only get enough of that around 3 days per year!) and don't forget enough Fiber!! (Both types).

According to Ray Peat " Several women who suffered from premenstrual symptoms, including migraine, had their serum estrogen measured before and after the “carrot diet,” and they found that the carrot lowered their estrogen within a few days, as it relieved their symptoms."

I really need to set up these protocols again. I will get some bloods done and then have a crack at this and let you know.

[Joker]

Anyone have any thoughts on Indole-3-Carbinol vs DIM?

DIM has always been an old staple but I've heard some say I3C may be the way to go.

[matter2003]

Anyone have any thoughts on Indole-3-Carbinol vs DIM?

DIM has always been an old staple but I've heard some say I3C may be the way to go.

No, I3C gets converted into DIM by the body, depending on enzymatic action of each person. DIM is the active metabolite of I3C and does not need to get converted...

Read what I posted above:

"DiIndolylMethane(DIM) is a substance directly related to Indole-3-Carbinol, which is found in high amounts in foods such as broccoli, cauliflower and kale. However, I3C cannot be used directly by the body, 2 molecules of I3C must first be converted into DIM by contact with stomach acid, which made I3C's effectiveness dependent on digestion. I3C is also unstable, while DIM is very stable, making DIM a much better choice. "

[Joker]

Thanks matter.

[the_buffer]

Great post mang, here's a question... you mention that the combo of Yohimbe and DIM, would that be a beneficial combination while building mass or only when cutting?

Thanks!!

[RobRegish]

I called Matter and told him this, but it goes for everyone that does such thorough homework!

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